Corporate Lawyer

If you could be honest, how much pride do you have in your profession? I have read that you rather be playing baseball or curing cancer... because your work is tedious. How would you compare your career to other jobs? Could you create a ranking list?

Asked by shirleyuet almost 12 years ago

Hi! "Pride" is an interesting word. By and large I think lawyers are good, smart people who don't get anywhere near enough respect. Every once in a while, you'll hear about a real scumbag lawyer, chasing ambulances, or filing frivolous lawsuits, and of course that gets all the media coverage, Which is a shame, because that's not representative of most lawyers I know. I'm proud to live in a country where if you can't afford a lawyer, one is provided for you free of charge. I'm proud of lawyers who take on really unpopular cases, knowing they'll face public wrath, but doing it because that's simply what we do in our country. YES, Tim McVeigh gets a lawyer. Yes, the Boston marathon bombers get a lawyer. Lawyers are a necessity in our country. And I'm dismayed to see how much flak they often get. We need MORE smart hard-working people, not fewer.

But 'pride' is different than fulfillment...and yes, unfortunately the vast majority of my lawyer friends are not happy nor fulfilled working in law. It's tedious. You don't get to be Atticus Finch or David Boies right out of law school. You get a lot of grunt work; it's thankless and tedious. It pays well. But (in my opinion) not enough to spend the majority of your 20s (and maybe 30s) at work on weekends because you have a client who needs a set of documents turned ASAP.

So I'm not sure what kind of ranking I can offer: it depends on what you value most. Hey, if your #1 priority is making a lot of money, there aren't many jobs that pay as well as a lawyer, without the work being all that difficult. But if you told me you valued happiness, or personal fulfillment, I'd tell you to run fast in the other direction. Some lawyers find those qualities in the practice of law. Most do not. Hope that helped, even though I think I rambled a bit:)

Will most summer associates in big metropolitan cities get offers after they summer in 2015 do you think?

Asked by Rolio over 10 years ago

Kind of a tricky question...now keep in mind that I haven't practiced in ages, and when I summered, nearly 100% of summer associates got full time offers. You had to darn-near burn the place down (or at the very least get drunk and do something inappropriate at a summer event:) not to get an offer.

But I hear things are much different these days depending on what city you're in (and it seems to vary firm-to-firm as well.) I've heard the big NYC firms still give offers to most if not all of their summers...but they've adjusted to the economic downturn by simply hiring fewer summers. The biggest NYC firms used to have classes of 100+ summer associates(!) I hear that number's down to 40-60 these days. Other firms I have heard have kept hiring summer classes just as large as in the 2003-2007 boom years...except the percentage of the summer class who gets offers has been cut in half from 95% to closer to 50%.

I don't have a crystal ball...all I can tell you is that it's definitely tougher out there now than it was when I graduated. Good luck.

Why do law firms simply match the year-end bonuses that are being given out by other firms? Don't bonuses depend on how well each individual firm did that year and if so shouldn't they all give slightly different bonuses?

Asked by brix over 10 years ago

Thanks for the question - I take it this was motivated in part by the recent round of super-generous bonuses being announced at NYC firms. To bring everyone up to speed, historically - at least when it comes to NY law firms - one big firm will announce the bonuses that it plans on paying to its non-partner lawyers some time around Thanksgiving, which will effectively "set the market" for what bonuses are going to be that year.  After that, most other NY firms (at least those in the similar reputational bracket) will fall in line and give their lawyers the same bonuses that were given out by the market-setter (aka first firm to announce.)  Sometimes though, like this year, a top-tier firm (this year it was Simpson Thacher) will be first out of the gate to announce its bonus scale, but then another peer firm (Davis Polk this year) won't simply offer matching bonuses, but will announce significantly HIGHER bonuses for its associates.  This leaves other law firms scrambling to decide whether they're going to match the 1st-to-announce firm's bonus scale, or the higher 2nd-to-announce scale.  Not to mention it pisses off the lawyers from the 1st-to-announce firm who all of a sudden see their peers at other firms getting higher bonuses.

Anyway, that's a summary of the politics, but your question actually gets at a more important and even controversial issue: why is there any "matching" going on at all?  As you correctly point out: some NYC law firms have better years financially than others...shouldn't their associates get rewarded for contributing to that firm's better-than-average success?  As with many things in law, the answer is 'yes that's the way it should work, but it doesn't'.  The most reasonable explanation is that over the years, NYC firms have settled into this one-firm-announces-their-bonus-scale-then-everyone-else-matches-it pattern, which represents an political equilibrium that avoids a green-eyed chaos that might result from every firm paying its associates differently.  (Note that SALARIES, in addition to bonuses, are generally identical across most top-tier NYC firms.)  Lawyers are a notoriously whiny bunch, and there may be far more attrition and lateraling for even small differences in pay, and hence all firms have fallen into this unspoken game-theory-ish balance.

A cynic might conversely argue that what's going on is a form of wage-fixing (which would be grossly illegal...Apple/Google got zinged for just such an arrangement).  That may be hard to ultimately prove in the absence of a paper trail that points to an express agreement to keep salaries and bonuses the same in a given market.  But there are certainly critics who believe that better-performing firms should reward their associates with above-market bonuses, rather than just distributing the extra gravy among the partners.

Hey lawgrunt! Thanks for answering everyone's questions! My question is: Why did you pick corporate law and did you consider other sectors? Why not for the others?

Asked by Emma over 10 years ago

Thanks for the question, it's a good one. I chose corporate law because I thought that attention to detail was one of my strengths. But the truth is that you basically need strong attention to detail regardless of which field of law you're considering. I liked the idea of transactional work; I'm pretty organized. I think I liked the notion of knowing what suite of documents needed to be assembled for a given transaction, rather than living in a world of litigation uncertainty where an entire case direction might change overnight depending on the actions of a counterparty. Corporate seemed a little more stable and predictable (< this doesn't mean easy or non-stressful).

Some firms have junior associate programs that have a mandatory rotation among a firm's various groups for the first 1 to 2 years...I actually think that's a great system, though it's not how my firm operated. VERY few law school graduates have any clue what it's like to work in a given field day in day out (I certainly didn't), and a forced rotation I think does a good job exposing you to the realities of day-to-day work in a given field before you have to choose what you enjoy most. So if you're a student and uncertain what field you'd enjoy most, perhaps look around for a firm who will let you 'sample' different practices before you have to choose what you like best. Hope that helped.

Is the 3rd year of law school a complete waste of time because most students already have their full-time jobs locked up?

Asked by elieM over 13 years ago

Agree 100% (provided you have your offer in the bag.) You could even say that extends to 2nd year too. Here’s how it works: 1st semester of your 2nd year you interview for a law firm summer associate position for your 2nd summer. The only grades the interviewer ever sees are those from your first year of law school. Offers are extended and accepted before that semester’s even over. Moreover, nearly all summer associates will get a full-time offer for post-graduation (the typical offer rate is probably less than 100% in a bad economy like this but when I was a summer, you’d have to have burned the firm to the ground not to get an offer.) 

Effectively what this means is that the only grades that matter are those from your first year of law school (unless you are one of the small percentage of students who re-interview your 3rd year because you either didn’t get a full-time offer or didn’t like your firm.) I wouldn’t call 3rd year a ‘waste of time’ though: I had an absolute ball (outside of the classroom.)

What happens if you don’t hit your billable hour target in a given year?

Asked by WillArnett over 13 years ago

Depends what firm you’re at. Usually you’ll get a reduced bonus (or none at all). If you’re at a hard-line firm, or you’ve had other work-related problems, you might get fired. Most NYC firms, including mine, have a billable hour target in the neighborhood of 2,000 / year. My first year I didn’t come close (1,600) but never heard a peep; but also got a lower bonus than my friends who billed more. The second year I was around 1,950 and got a full bonus. At my firm at least, the ‘target’ is just that: a target. Not a magic number that the partnership uses to make draconian decisions. The partners understand that junior associates aren’t the ones bringing in business; we just get assigned to projects and work on them. So evaluating us on a metric over which we have little control is a little counter-intuitive, especially in a bad economy. If the firm was really busy and all of the other associates were hitting 2,000 hours and you showed up with 1,500, you’d probably hear about it.

How much do law firm partners make?

Asked by NolanP over 13 years ago

Hard to estimate because it’s not public knowledge, but it differs from firm to firm. Law firms will release figures called “profits per partner”, which media outlets parrot back, but those aren’t really representative numbers because they’re often just the firm’s profits divided by the number of partners. They don’t reflect the fact that different partners can take home wildly divergent paychecks, depending on how much business they bring to the firm. At my firm I think the youngest partners make about $600,000, but it’s not uncommon for a seasoned partner at a well-regarded firm like Simpson Thacher or Kirkland & Ellis to take home between $2-3 million per year.

Can you do work for private clients outside your firm? For example, could you handle a friend's real estate closing, separate from your work at the firm?

Asked by feedthebirds over 13 years ago

Nope -- no big NYC law firm that I know of lets its attorneys take on work outside the firm without permission...I'm pretty sure I signed something to that effect when I started work. I don't think it's illegal to do so, but firms want to keep their lawyers (especially their junior attorneys) on a short leash: it wouldn't look very good if a lawyer got himself into hot water with a disciplinary issue, for example, on a case external to the firm. There are probably malpractice issues at play too, since I know that every firm has malpractice insurance and it may even be a requirement of their insurance policy that attorneys only work on firm cases. (Sorry for the delay in answering, just saw this Q now!)

How hard is it to make partner at a law firm?

Asked by dolphintrainer over 13 years ago

Harder than most people think. First off, you have to *want* to make partner, which most people don’t, because it’s usually a 9 or 10 year track, and that’s a good chunk of your life doing often mundane work. I have friends who started at large firms in NYC in a 1st-year class of 110. They estimate that among them perhaps 5 or 6 will stick around and make partner. Most will leave voluntarily before then. Some will get fired. Some will get told in the 7th or 8th year that they’re welcome to stick around as a senior Counsel but that partnership is not in their future at the firm.

Are you happy practicing law? Do you ever wish you did something else?

Asked by picasos over 13 years ago

I don’t think ‘happy’ is the right word for it, but I’m not filled with regret. The work is usually tedious, but my firm is pretty laid-back compared to some of the more notorious NYC sweatshops. The money’s good and I enjoy working in a well-regarded profession. When my mind begins to wander to other careers, it’s usually because my job isn’t particularly “fun” (I’d obviously rather be playing for the Mets), nor do I feel like I’m necessarily making the world a better place: I’d rather be curing cancer. But last I heard, nobody was curing cancer.

How easy is it for a seasoned partner to lateral?

Asked by lat over 10 years ago

That's a great question, and something I've often wondered myself, but here I need to confess that I actually have no idea. I mean...there's certainly a circle of superlawyers who have a book of business such that they can write their own ticket, whether by moving to their firm of choice or hanging their own shingle. But there's probably a lesser tier of partner for whom it's probably a tougher proposition...sorry that's a pretty answer, I simply don't really know.

As a client, how can I be sure I'm not getting screwed in billed hours?

Asked by skeptictank over 13 years ago

Short answer: you don't, but there are plenty of high-end law firms to choose from in NYC, so clients can always vote with their feet and take their business elsewhere if they feel like they're not getting their money's worth. Every so often, there will be a high-profile article written about how the billable-hour system is rife with inefficiencies (not to mention perverse incentives), with the article going on to predict that law firms will inevitably move toward fixed fee billing. But those articles have been around for 40+ years, and here we are in 2012 still punching the clock. Moreover, the amount of time/energy that I have to spend submitting my timesheets (accounting for my work days in 6-minute chunks, no joke) is absurd. Some day a law firm will get it right by hiring smart lawyers, staffing them appropriately, and billing clients equitably, but no one seems to have mastered it just yet.

Are lawyers the scumbags they’re portrayed as on TV and in movies?

Asked by DBC over 13 years ago

That’s actually a pet peeve of mine (and many lawyers, I think). I’m sure there are plenty of ambulance-chasers and sleazeballs plaintiff’s lawyers, but by and large lawyers are smart, scrupulous and responsible. Our economy / government could simply not function without capable lawyers. They get an undeserved rap in the media, in my opinion.

Is it a better idea to go to law school straight from undergrad or to work for a few years first?

Asked by 200400 over 13 years ago

An oft-debated question, but I’m not sure there’s a right answer. If you come right from undergrad, your brain’s still in “study mode”, which will serve you well in the rigorous first year curriculum. If you’ve worked for a few years before going back to law school you’re probably better mentally prepared for what the working world actually holds and can approach your studies with more realistic expectations of to what extent things learned in academia translate to real-world applicability.

Is "up or out” standard practice at most firms?

Asked by porky1111 over 13 years ago

For the uninitiated, “up or out” essentially refers to a policy whereby a lawyer can either be on a “partnership track”, or he’d be asked by the firm to leave. In other words, at some firms, management will tell you “Hey, partnership probably isn’t in your future at this place, but we think you do good work, and you’re welcome to stay on as a Senior Counsel”, whereas at other firms, if they determine that you’re not partnership material, you’ll just be let go. It would probably be hard to quantify how many firms have that policy, since it’s not something that’s publicly discussed. Some firms have reputation as “up or out”-type places, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

How can I see my state's laws presented in clear, understandable terms with little business jargon? I simply want to know if 18 year old musicians can play in bars and nightclubs in my state.

Asked by JackKelly almost 12 years ago

Ha! A good question, but not one that has an easy answer.  I *wish* every State made it a priority to produce a "layman's guide to understanding the law" that could be understood by anybody.  Some do a better job than others, but unfortunately the law can be big and complex...and it simply doesn't lend itself to bite-sized Cliffs Notes.

So I'm going to give a pretty lame answer, but it's what I'd do in your shoes: try a bunch of different Google searches.  Yours seems to be a pretty targeted and specific question (which is good).  Google can surprise you sometimes: i just ran a search for Musicians age to play in bars and the first page of results was chalk full of relevant sites, like this one or this one.

I don't know what State you're in but you'd be surprised what a few Google searches can turn up:)

Is there a lot of internal dating within your firm? Is that frowned upon?

Asked by window1 over 13 years ago

There are a few lawyer-couples at my firm who met while working here. I don’t think we ever got any official firm message about it during orientation. If we did, it was probably in the vein of “as long as you keep things professional at the office, your personal life is none of our business.” My firm’s pretty laid back like that. There are a few rumors of affairs between married male partners and female associates…I’m guessing that would be frowned upon.

Have you ever seen a co-worker have a complete breakdown in the office or quit on the spot?

Asked by ind00rs over 13 years ago

I’ve never seen an on-the-spot ‘take this job and shove it’ moment. Junior lawyers (at least at top firms) are way too cowardly for that – not to mention that in this economy we’d be way too scared to quit with 6-figures of law school debt to be paid off. However, take this for what it’s worth: close to 100% of the female associates I’ve talked to have admitted crying in their offices because of work. And that’s not a knock on the ladies: perhaps men simply express their emotions in different ways (or are too proud to admit to shedding tears.) But that number’s not an exaggeration: close to 100%.

How often were you in the office past midnight? Ever pull any legitimate all-nighters?

Asked by bleedingpony over 13 years ago

I’m a corporate lawyer in a pretty bad economy. There just aren’t as many deals happening as there had been in the years before I got here. So my hours aren’t anywhere near the hellish stories you’ve probably heard. I average about 1,700 billable hours / year, which was pretty average among associates in my group (compare that to the 2,800 hours for some of my friends in our insanely busy Bankruptcy practice.) I usually spend a few nights per month at the office after midnight. True all-nighters where I’m still at the office when everyone comes back in the next morning are rare: I think I’ve pulled three of them total, and they’re no fun.

Being Hispanic, positive or negative for this area? Any area where this matters more than in others?

Asked by a ninny mouse almost 12 years ago

To be honest, I'm not sure.  Diversity is always good, of course.  I can tell you that nearly every major law firm in New York loves to tout their diversity numbers....whether that actually plays a role in hiring decisions I can't say (and I doubt they'd admit to it anyway:)

Do lawyers get big year-end bonuses?

Asked by AliPlains over 13 years ago

As 1st-years we got a $10,000 bonus, but that was lower than in previous years because of the bad economy. Typical bonuses are probably more like $20,000 / $25,000 / $30,000 for 1st through 3rd year associates respectively. And at some firms, you don’t get your bonus unless you hit your billable hour target which, again, is usually in the 2,000 range.

Ever see one of your coworkers do something unethical? Did you report him/her?

Asked by BostonRules over 13 years ago

Not really. I guess I’ve heard co-workers and friends of mine at other firms mention the names of clients / cases they’re working on outside of work, which you’re not supposed to do. As far as ethical violations of the type that you’d get disciplined for by the State Bar, I’ve never seen anything like that first-hand.

How much do corporate lawyers make? What is the starting salary for 1st year lawyers?

Asked by NYC99 over 13 years ago

Depends on the city and depends on the firm. Most top tier firms have lockstep salary grades, so everyone in the same class year gets paid more or less the same, and get raises at the same time (at the end of every year). The starting salary at top firm in NYC is about $140,000 to $160,000. Check out this chart. At most large law firms are more or less public knowledge, up until the partner level.

I have a c-corp formed in Illinois that's not in good standing due to lack of annual report & also my registered agent service is not paid for renewal. The delay I am in now are 20 days. Can I just leave the company to save the cost of reinstatement?

Asked by Tivadar almost 12 years ago

Sorry for the massively delayed response...and I'm going to disappoint you even more by telling the truth: I simply don't know, but even if I did I'm not permitted to give legal advice here.

Married to the founder and owner of an S Corp. I was an officer until 1/1/17. We are divorcing. S Corp being dissolved. Outstanding debt of $40K. What's the best way to protect myself from creditors? How would the debt be handled? Thank you

Asked by Luis over 7 years ago

COVID-19 and masks and everything I believe is a major civil rights violation on medical conditions and religious as well as our freedom of expression and I could go on and on.

Asked by Bob over 4 years ago

while filing a demand notice under section 8 IBC can directors be made party ?

Asked by ARJUN SINGH about 4 years ago

My technology startup? Im incorporating in Delaware. We will not be re-upping on stocks, so I decided the number of shares will 500,000,000,000 and the par value will be set at 0.000000001, is this a good idea for venture capital funding.

Asked by anonymous almost 7 years ago

A man from India wants me to get incorporated with him, because I have a social security card, to run 2 small gas stations. Is this ligit?

Asked by Brady about 8 years ago

What course would you recommend that I take before I get into law school? I was thinking maybe a Business Administration Degree?
Thanks

Asked by Ismael over 8 years ago

What a regular day at college if going for a Corporate Lawyer degree?

Asked by Elemer about 7 years ago

After 2 mths of my son being in private school the public school told me I would be fine for absences cuz in private school wasn't registered . Can I sue the private school for my $$ back cuz they wasn't a legit school ?

Asked by Jen over 8 years ago

Is there really THAT much of a difference in the top 10 or 20 law firms in a major market like New York? Don't they all have Ivy League grads who are super smart and work a ton?

Asked by ERin15 over 10 years ago

all right LAW MAN, i have solved the recipe for kentucky fried chicken GRAVY. Can i patten or copyright it...not kfc gravy, harland sanders recipe!!??OH YES i live in canada..i am serious or i wouldn't ask..

Asked by DERRICK WILSON almost 12 years ago

Is it legal for a boss to say you can’t poop at work?

Asked by Kara over 5 years ago

Is it legal for a cooperation to do a mass shut down nation wide with no notice to their employees

Asked by Kim over 5 years ago

Can a judge change their mind after signing a final order?

Asked by NJ271 about 4 years ago

what is the best way to prepare for the LSAT. And when can I intern?

Asked by Dale Allgood almost 8 years ago

I’m a high school junior this year and my whole life I wanted to be a corporate lawyer how many years of college is it? And what schools I major in?

Asked by Dashawna over 6 years ago

I’m a junior in high school this year and my whole life I wanted to be a corporate lawyer what should I major in college? And how many years is it?and what are the requirements?

Asked by Dashawna over 6 years ago

My 12-year-old sister hit mom if she called the police and if the police arrived she did admit that she had her mom this is the 3rd time it happened will she get arrested how long whould her sentence be if she lives in Pennsylvania, just a question

Asked by Anna over 9 years ago

We are a non-recognized tribe and created a branch from the incorporated other branch. Should we also incorporate?

Asked by Benjamin over 9 years ago

I created a tribal second branch to the incorporated one. Do I need to incorporate the second branch that is non-profit? I asked this question before with no answer. Can you help. Bunnellloyalist@aol.com

Asked by Benjamin over 9 years ago

Okay bear with me on this,
Let’s say you were sexual abused by a sibling, 5 years later or so that sibling wants to come over for the day and I don’t want to be home. I’m only 17 but do I have the right to leave while that sibling is at my house?

Asked by Myztique almost 5 years ago